The Yiddish Policemen's Union discussion

[JeffKamin]

Thanks for last night. I had a good time.

I'm writing my blog on the event and discussion. What stood out for you? What did you get from it that enhanced your enjoyment of the book? Did you learn anything? Take a new perspective or change your mind on it? Feel free to comment here. And ask any questions you may have. It's our forum, use it.

[Jay Kangel]

Shame on me for not reading the entire book before the discussion. If you wish to read about red cows in mathematics go to

http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:FDcYdoMur4sJ:www.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~noson/paradox.ps+yanofsky+red+cow+Kangel&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

In case this does not yield a web page. Go to Google and search for "Yanofsky red cow Kangel" (No quotes).

Hopefully this message is worth two cents.
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[Jay Kangel]

I forgot to post that the red cow reference is on page eleven of the above article.
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[Roxie]

I was interested in what avid mystery readers had to say. I read a lot of whodunits, but they're the cheesy kind with bloody cleavers on the front. Or cats.

What I particularly liked about YPU was the prose, which several people brought up last night. I wasn't crazy about the end, and agreed with the comments about it seeming too over-the-top, but then again I'm used to mystery novels having bizarre endings.

But what I was wondering, are there any mystery fans that could recommend some authors? I'm all for quick reads like Evanovich, Barnes, Braun, Dunning, Cornwell etc. but I would like to read something with a little more depth/style. Suggestions?

Also, if anyone ever needs to look up a mystery author or character, stop you're killing me is pretty handy, though somewhat overwhelming.

[doubtful guest]

could have said this last nite. didn't. I would say Chabon's book is a not a stylistic nod to mysteries but to Noir. Noir, unlike series mysteries from Agatha Christie onward, doesn't tend to be about clever plotting of the whodunit (think Poirot and such) but about a sort of gimlet-eyed look at the moral/immoral underpinnings its characters or its setting. Even though the sleuth does tend to get to find out who did it, they may kinda wish they could go back to not knowing the secrets they kicked loose. Bad fathers do tend to pop up quite a bit.

The two big names at the start of things are Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler. Me, I have always been bored to death by mysteries, so it took a friend in college a while to convince me to read Chandler. Once I did, I read all of him. Then I tried Hammett, and found an even better writer.

My favorite Hammett: Dain Curse, Maltese Falcon, Glass Key (this last one will seem familiar to you Coen Brothers fans out there: If you've seen Miller's Crossing, you'll find their main source material in this last one, though Miller's Crossing is not a movie version of the Glass Key)

Favorite Chandler: The Long Goodbye, The Big Sleep

From there you can go in a bunch of directions, and a bunch of people would say that somewhere in the 40's or 50's Noir became more a film thing than a literary thing, though you get the occasional breakout like James Ellroy. And, if noir is about really taking a steely look at the underbelly of society in unflinching detail, then there are those who point to Television shows like The Wire or Deadwood (or Prime Suspect) as the current representatives of the genre. I dunno. One thing I'm sure of, though: In Noir, cats don't solve crimes!
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Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est

[elihoughton]

Who is this doubtful guest? I have a place in my heart (in corde meo locus) for anyone whose signature line is in Latin, even if it is from a modern source. I agree with just about everything he or she has written (except The Secret History, of course).

I think The Yiddish Policemen's Union did resonate more for with as a Noir fan than it might have had I not read those books. Hammett and Chandler are the best ways to start. I prefer Hammett's hard-boiled prose to the somewhat more flowery writing of Chandler, but both are excellent.

While living in California, Jennie and I went on the Hammett tour of San Francisco. Just some dude in a fedora leading us on a two hour walk. There is actually a plaque on the corner where Sam Spade's partner is killed in The Maltese Falcon. The plaque makes no mention of the book or that the person who died there is a fictional character.

Anyway, some suggestions for Noir fans looking beyond H & C:

Library of America has two excellent collections:

http://www.loa.org/volume.jsp?RequestID=1
http://www.loa.org/volume.jsp?RequestID=2

The Black Lizard Book of Pulps looks interesting, but I haven't read it yet:

http://www.magersandquinn.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1448926&isbn_id=3699523